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MY 2012 XF S Portfolio Ultimate Black
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am wondering the above. It feels like everyone has a problem with brake judder unless they use harsh brake pads that act like a lathe. I recently changed the upper control arm that had about 2mm of play. Judder improved significantly but before changing the discs I wanted to find the route cause. I have used dial indicator and discs are slightly warped. Figures are much better than what it was 1000miles back. Which gives the impression that discs are dynamically changing shape which could happen to a new disc. JPEC recommended use of ceramic pads for front on 355mm and 385mm discs. Also, callipers could cause this reoccurring in near future. I have seen many people replaced discs and it started shortly after.

we had threads about who had brake judder problem. I am wondering if there is anyone without this problem. And what they use.
 

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XJ Portfolio.2014.Amethyst Black.
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Using EBC Ultimax......no brake judder.
 
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Red Stuff pads and EBC discs - and I got brake judder.

Mine was from run-out, which I could feel even at low speed gentle braking. One of the discs had 0.2mm run-out, which is pretty huge for discs.

Had all 4 discs skimmed whilst on the hubs, with a Pro Cut lathe. Could feel the difference immediately.

Still running my new pads in (red stuff again), and so it’s too early to say if I have any judder.

I suspect my problem may be with the hub. Only time will tell.

Before EBC, I was using OE discs and pads. I understand that the OE discs are hard, and the pads soft, whereas EBC has soft discs and hard pads.

I had no judder at all with OE discs and pads. But huge amounts of dust, obviously.
 

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I’ve have judder with a few combinations.

OEM discs and pads
OEM discs Brembo pads
MTEC discs and RedStuff pads
OEM discs and RedStuff pads

Most of the times I’ve put it down to pad transfer and been able to seriously reduce the judder after a few heavy braking sessions.

Early days on the EBC discs and YellowStuff pads. Only covered a few hundred miles and so far they’ve been fine.


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2014 F-Type S V6 coupe most of the fruit and a few mods.
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Never had any brake judder on any of my Jags.
Stock discs with stock pads.
Stock discs with Centric PosiQuiet semi-metallic pads.
New after-market but OEM type front discs on the XFS with Centric pads.
Hart brand slotted and drilled discs on the XFR and F-Type with Centric pads, same on the F-Type, then same discs with Porterfield R4S pads.
IMHO the secret is to properly and thoroughly bed in each set of new discs and/or pads - eight or ten heavy brake applications one after the other from approx 60 mph down to approx 5 mph (do not stop!) until you can smell very hot discs and pads, then do a "cool down lap". This prevents brake pad material deposition/imprint which is almost always incorrectly called "warped discs".
The other common cause of brake judder is sticking caliper slide pins so I always lightly grease them with hi-temp brake grease.
As I said, following these two tips I have never ever had any brake judder regardless of discs or pads.
 
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Two XFRs and the F-type over 10 years, no brake judder. OEM pads and discs. One thing I usually do after heavy braking is stop short and very slowly let the car roll forward with a light touch on the brakes. Whether this actually does anything good I don't know, but just might avoid imprinting.
 
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Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
I was hoping to conclude EPC pads will solve the problem but it seems it doesn’t.

however I am gaining confidence that a new set of discs and correct habit of braking will solve my problem.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Two XFRs and the F-type over 10 years, no brake judder. OEM pads and discs. One thing I usually do after heavy braking is stop short and very slowly let the car roll forward with a light touch on the brakes. Whether this actually does anything good I don't know, but just might avoid imprinting.
This is promising. Meaning a new set of discs that are installed correctly could be saved to last longer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Never had any brake judder on any of my Jags.
Stock discs with stock pads.
Stock discs with Centric PosiQuiet semi-metallic pads.
New after-market but OEM type front discs on the XFS with Centric pads.
Hart brand slotted and drilled discs on the XFR and F-Type with Centric pads, same on the F-Type, then same discs with Porterfield R4S pads.
IMHO the secret is to properly and thoroughly bed in each set of new discs and/or pads - eight or ten heavy brake applications one after the other from approx 60 mph down to approx 5 mph (do not stop!) until you can smell very hot discs and pads, then do a "cool down lap". This prevents brake pad material deposition/imprint which is almost always incorrectly called "warped discs".
The other common cause of brake judder is sticking caliper slide pins so I always lightly grease them with hi-temp brake grease.
As I said, following these two tips I have never ever had any brake judder regardless of discs or pads.
I did try it and it didn’t help. I guess because damage was already done. Will certainly try it when new discs are on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I’ve have judder with a few combinations.

OEM discs and pads
OEM discs Brembo pads
MTEC discs and RedStuff pads
OEM discs and RedStuff pads

Most of the times I’ve put it down to pad transfer and been able to seriously reduce the judder after a few heavy braking sessions.

Early days on the EBC discs and YellowStuff pads. Only covered a few hundred miles and so far they’ve been fine.


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Did you change them because of judder or they needed changing?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Red Stuff pads and EBC discs - and I got brake judder.

Mine was from run-out, which I could feel even at low speed gentle braking. One of the discs had 0.2mm run-out, which is pretty huge for discs.

Had all 4 discs skimmed whilst on the hubs, with a Pro Cut lathe. Could feel the difference immediately.

Still running my new pads in (red stuff again), and so it’s too early to say if I have any judder.

I suspect my problem may be with the hub. Only time will tell.

Before EBC, I was using OE discs and pads. I understand that the OE discs are hard, and the pads soft, whereas EBC has soft discs and hard pads.

I had no judder at all with OE discs and pads. But huge amounts of dust, obviously.
I called pro cut local garage but they strangely suggested to replace discs because skimming make disks thinner and more prone to be warped. I didn’t get what was the point then?! Why they sell this service.
I do know that skimming discs annually is recommended by Porsche.

I also tried milling an old brake disc that I have with an mdf router and it cuts like cheese. Which feels like it can warp relatively easy despite how it looks. I brake bits with the same router working on 0.5 sheet of stainless steel 316.
 

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No judder issues on OEM discs and pads or my current EBC disc and yellow pads set up.This is despite an unusually wear on the inner side of both front discs.

I have to agree with [mention]JakeBlade [/mention] re: EBC having seemingly soft discs as my fronts need to be replaced after only 22k miles.
 

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My aging cynical attiude is that JLR KNOW FINE BLOODY WELL what causes this, but to tell us the solution is to admit liabilitity. That cost Toyota tens of millions on an engine fault.
 

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I always had a slight flutter on my X250 first drive in the morning but after the second application of the brakes it didn’t come back for the rest of the day.
Always used Mintex discs and pads.

I found that keeping the slide pins clean and unlubricated helped keep the flutter to a minimum. Also, some FMs would remove the slide pin rubber seals to clean and rust off the caliper / bracket as that can restrict the rubber seal and cause the pins to stick.

The x260 has never done this on OEM discs and pads.
 
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No judder issues on OEM discs and pads or my current EBC disc and yellow pads set up.This is despite an unusually wear on the inner side of both front discs.

I have to agree with [mention]JakeBlade [/mention] re: EBC having seemingly soft discs as my fronts need to be replaced after only 22k miles.
My X250 front pads always wore more heavily on the inner pad. I guess that why they put the sensor on the inner one.

Something all X250 owners should be careful of if doing visual inspections without taking the wheels off.
 

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My X250 front pads always wore more heavily on the inner pad. I guess that why they put the sensor on the inner one.

Something all X250 owners should be careful of if doing visual inspections without taking the wheels off.
I’ve not just got greater wear on the inner pad, the wear pattern is very strange too. The lip on the outer edge tapers so there is more wear towards the centre of the disc. Never seen anything like it.

The left is the inner side, not a great drawing but it hopefully gets the point across.

 

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I called pro cut local garage but they strangely suggested to replace discs because skimming make disks thinner and more prone to be warped. I didn’t get what was the point then?! Why they sell this service.
I do know that skimming discs annually is recommended by Porsche.

I also tried milling an old brake disc that I have with an mdf router and it cuts like cheese. Which feels like it can warp relatively easy despite how it looks. I brake bits with the same router working on 0.5 sheet of stainless steel 316.
EBC recommend pro cut disc skimming to remove any irregularities with the hub, and to reduce pad bedding in time.

With new EBC disc and pads and no skimming, it took me about 1,000 miles to fully bed in the pads.

So far, on skimmed EBC discs and new red stuff pads, it’s taken me 500 miles, and still not quite there with a full contact patch on the on the rear discs.

At that point you then do the multiple decelerations that Oz describes.

I did that with the first set, but got the judder about 12,000 miles later, and it was just getting worse. That’s when the run-out was measured, and discs skimmed.

I also do the brake and roll forward described above, to prevent pad residue on the discs, and do a lot of engine braking with the paddles down to 2nd where I can, and creep forward. It must be a joy to drive behind me.

My Porsches have always lived their lives with advisories on “pitted and corroded discs”, but they’ve never been skimmed, as it is more caused by low mileage and just surface rust which can be removed with a bit of heavy braking.

As to why the pro-cut place won’t do your discs - if you don’t have much life on your discs, or if they are cheap, then it may not be that economic to get old ones lathed.

What do you have on at the moment, and how much wear do you have?
 

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Did you change them because of judder or they needed changing?
First set of brakes on my first XF were replaced under warranty due to the judder.

The other brakes I lived with until they needed replacement due to wear. As I said, several heavy braking actions helped reduce the judder a lot.


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I’ve never had a problem with brake judder in any other car. I’ve had RWD cars previously and they were fine. It’s only since getting the XFs that I’ve had this issue but as mentioned, in my car I’m almost certain it was more to do with pad transfer than disc run out.


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Personally, I believe that my habit of drving cas after washing them while using the brakes a lot to dry them out reduces judder. I suspect it is not so much disc run out, but variances in coefficient friction around the disc that causes a lot of juddering. Leaving brakes "wet" allows corrosion under the pads - you can actually see the pad outlines on the discs on many cars.

Whatever the validity of my theory, I have not had any judder at all on any of our vehicles, some with EBC discs and pads, since I adopted this tactic.
 
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