[MatH]

The DVLA kindly sent me a fine for non insurance of my previous Jaguar XF which I part exchanged at an independent dealership in October last year. The change of ownership had not been completed. If I remember correctly the salesman could not log in to the DVLA website at the time so was intending on entering the details later that day or the next, but obviously forgot. Of course I never thought any more about it. Looking online, the motor insurance bureau is supposed to send a letter warning of the potential for a fine, but I haven't had one, so I may try to contest the fine even though I have paid it and informed the DVLA of the change.
Please beware if selling a vehicle that this may occur and make sure the DVLA has been informed.

 

[OBC John]

But surely it wouldn't take much to prove that the car wasn't in your ownership? Why would you pay the fine?

 

[MatH]

But surely it wouldn't take much to prove that the car wasn't in your ownership? Why would you pay the fine?

Yes, but sadly the DVLA doesn't accept that as an excuse as the vehicle was still recorded against me as the registered keeper...already explained that to them. It's been quite a while since I physically sent in a paper slip...the change of ownership is recorded on the computer at time of sale (if it's a dealer) and has been for some years so of course it is my fault for not checking I suppose. I have written to the garage, but not had a reply as yet....I don't think that they will refund me. A lesson for next time.

 

[cutlea01]

The change of ownership is the sellers responsibility, not the buyer's, even if selling to a dealer. However, the fine should be negated with proof of the date of ownership transfer, your receipt you got from the dealer. This will take some correspondence and there is a process to argue the DVLA fine, somewhere. The registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner either, as in this case. The V5 even states this.

 

[Phil1]

Yep, it's your responsibility to make sure the change of ownership is completed.

 

[HollowPoint]

I wouldn't have paid the fine, I'd have simply sent them proof that the vehicle transferred to a business who promised to take care of the change of ownership. Sounds like the mistake you made was calling them on the telephone... it's a preposterous setup anyway, fining people for having a car MOT'd and Tax'd, but not insured and not SORN'd... talk about authoritarian! It's done nothing whatsoever to prevent uninsured drivers either, the only thing it has done, is generate some passive fine income from unsuspecting law abiding people who get caught out by technicalities and worse yet, technical breakdown of DVLA systems! Don't ever send paper slips to the DVLA anymore, as since Covid, they just don't process them, at least, not in time to prevent anything happening. Use the website, which for some stupid reason isn't available 24x7 either, even if it's just to make absolutely certain the change of ownership is done so you don't get random speeding fines, parking fines, bus lane fines, untaxed fines, uninsured fines and whatever next fine they can think of tied to owning a car.

 

[wilf]

The last time we traded in a vehicle, the dealer was most insistent that we allowed them to notify the DVLA of the change of ownership - knowing it is the seller's responsibility I did it myself anyway, and got a sniffy response when I told the salesman I had done so, why that should be I don't know, maybe it throws a spanner into the way they fund s/h car stock ( they basically finance it in some strange way).

 

[MatH]

The last time we traded in a vehicle, the dealer was most insistent that we allowed them to notify the DVLA of the change of ownership - knowing it is the seller's responsibility I did it myself anyway, and got a sniffy response when I told the salesman I had done so, why that should be I don't know, maybe it throws a spanner into the way they fund s/h car stock ( they basically finance it in some strange way).

I have had a parking fine for a sold vehicle in the past, but I just sent that back to police explaining I'd sold the vehicle and I never heard anymore about that. There is an option on the fine to explain the change of ownership....be a good idea for DVLA to do that as well.

 

[MatH]

The last time we traded in a vehicle, the dealer was most insistent that we allowed them to notify the DVLA of the change of ownership - knowing it is the seller's responsibility I did it myself anyway, and got a sniffy response when I told the salesman I had done so, why that should be I don't know, maybe it throws a spanner into the way they fund s/h car stock ( they basically finance it in some strange way).

They are only supposed to have a 90 day grace period before they need to register a new owner...probably explains why they wanted to delay the change.

 

[MatH]

I wouldn't have paid the fine, I'd have simply sent them proof that the vehicle transferred to a business who promised to take care of the change of ownership. Sounds like the mistake you made was calling them on the telephone... it's a preposterous setup anyway, fining people for having a car MOT'd and Tax'd, but not insured and not SORN'd... talk about authoritarian! It's done nothing whatsoever to prevent uninsured drivers either, the only thing it has done, is generate some passive fine income from unsuspecting law abiding people who get caught out by technicalities and worse yet, technical breakdown of DVLA systems! Don't ever send paper slips to the DVLA anymore, as since Covid, they just don't process them, at least, not in time to prevent anything happening. Use the website, which for some stupid reason isn't available 24x7 either, even if it's just to make absolutely certain the change of ownership is done so you don't get random speeding fines, parking fines, bus lane fines, untaxed fines, uninsured fines and whatever next fine they can think of tied to owning a car.

No I didn't call them I just sent the form back explaining the change....they sent a letter back saying that they still wanted payment....just to clarify.

 

[HollowPoint]

No I didn't call them I just sent the form back explaining the change....they sent a letter back saying that they still wanted payment....just to clarify.

No worries, I did some IT work for them a few years ago and it truly is shocking the way they run the place. A friend has just had a problem with a motorbike he sold as 'Spares or Repairs' as it had a cracked head. He was at work when the buyer arrived and his mum handed over the v5 and off the guy went... my mate didn't have a phone number or address for him. Last month he got a speeding fine through as the registered owner of the bike... thankfully, when he wrote them a letter explaining that it had been sold to a private buyer and that his mum had mistakenly given away the v5 to the new owner, they dropped the fine, despite him not being able to provide information on who the new owner is, or how to get in touch with them.

 

[cutlea01]

While you weren't the registered keeper at the time the DVLA said you were, and issued the fine for no insurance, you are not legally required to insure it thus you are not culpable of being fined, my take on it anyway. However, not informing DVLA of change of ownership is a criminal offence with a fine of up to £1,000. So you may be able to dodge paying the fine but could open yourself to worse! When I traded my last Jaguar to a dealer, they said they'd deal with the DVLA paperwork and asked for the whole V5. I refused, giving them the part they required and that evening registered the car as having been transferred to a car dealer, as was my legal duty. In this case, I think the better option is to pay the fine and be done with it, putting it down to a life experience.

 

[Horlicks]

What is the RFL situation? I guess you haven't had a refund.

 

[Philayl]

I suspect that dealers want to notify the change of ownership themselves because if they can re-sell it within the grace period it won't have them on as owners and they can advertise as having less owners if they are not included. Phil

 

[HollowPoint]

I suspect that dealers want to notify the change of ownership themselves because if they can re-sell it within the grace period it won't have them on as owners and they can advertise as having less owners if they are not included. Phil

I'm fairly sure that when you declare selling it to a trader, it doesn't actually go in their name the way a normal ownership change does, it sort of gets 'held' against them as a temporary keeper and therefore doesn't affect the number of keepers.

 

[cutlea01]

^^^ This. However they are responsible for it, insuring it, taxing it, declaring driver if caught speeding etc if used on the road.

 

[Phil1]

I'm fairly sure that when you declare selling it to a trader, it doesn't actually go in their name the way a normal ownership change does, it sort of gets 'held' against them as a temporary keeper and therefore doesn't affect the number of keepers.

Yep, they are in effect still the registered keeper, but still responsible should there be any issues.

 

[MatH]

I've written to the DVLA stating my reasons for not being fined so I'll update when I get a reply. I have paid the £50 as I don't want to have to pay the full amount of £100, but hoping I may get a refund.

 

[MatH]

Update: I have written to the DVLA again, but they have upheld the fine. I mentioned the fact that the DVLA website was not accessable at the time I sold the car, but of course there was no admittance of any blame on their part just a reaffirmation that it's my fault so I have to pay. I may consider further action, but it's probably not worthwhile....I'll have to look at the wording of the law to see if there's any chance of a claim against them.

 

[MatH]

Update: I have looked at the law (section 144A-D of the road traffic act 1988) which covers insurance of a motor vehicle. This does not seem to make mention of the motor insurance bureau (MIB) who are supposed to inform you that a vehicle may not be insured (before a fine is issued) which it states should happen when looking online at the processes. However I have already pointed this out to the DVLA without any joy. I think that the onus is on the registered keeper to prove to the DVLA that they had informed them of the change prior to the offence, which of course it appeared I hadn't. When selling a vehicle keep a note of the VIN and registration and make sure the DVLA is informed of the change.