oh dear...

 

I wonder why?

that is on the exit of a right hand bend, they have taken it to fast and skidded, over compensated and then went into the wall.

silly poor driving, the driver is a pillock.

that said i hope no one was hurt

James

 

Oh dear :ahhhhh:

 

More here

http://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...logs/motoramic/first-public-jaguar-f-type-crash-arrives-courtesy-173517040.html

 

In that case he should have known better.

 

Looks like a UK location with cars behind on the left side of the road. 'F' Type is LHD though, the wipers parked on the right. RHD ones they park on the left:

 

Looks like a Welsh Wall!!!...possibly Lake District

 

can see this on ebay soon. F Type for breaking, most parts apart from bonnet,front bumper,NSF Headlight etc.....Ouch

 

Another muttering rotter as will have to keep his head down for a bit.

 

on the larger photos you can see the Airbag on the left (of the photo) but not the right so a steering wheel looks to of help the bag away from the screen

i think you can see the dash rise on the right too so i would say it was a LHD

Jaguar have not been bought out by Sukhoi or Airbus as these companies are good at crashing preproduction products

A great shame and if there is a prosecution for dangerous driving, very bad news for Jaguar.

But i think every one walked away, or i hope so, and that is the most important thing.

James

 

I wonder if the cameraman in the chase car got any good footage? Probably wiped it by now so it can't be used as evidence.

 

Dont jags have like a black box

can the police not ask to see it.

one think for shaw it was being driven quick, i dont know the sped of the road but it only narrow.

James

 

I thought it was LHD too as the nearside door was open, unless there was a passenger in there!

 

Or believed Jaguar that the F type handles like a Porsche - then found out it doesnt

 

ohhh, thats harsh.....but true..lol.
i think the F type should be on rule 43. (gripper?)

 

it is on a public road so grip between Porsche or Jaguar will not come into it

It is all down to driver, you must match the limit point to drive safe and quick around a corner if you push it then you lose it
it is only when the limit point opens up that you can chase it but then you will never catch it
had he cornered in the correct way and lost it then the damage would not be were it is on the car unless he hit oil etc
with out seeing the corner i can not tell you the speed of the corner but if this has been just given to a jerno for a drive well that is not good

I have taken many people who drive much better than I on a track but an open road is almost the compete opposite, and though you do cut corners looking at this one with the wall i would not think this was one of them

It looks to me as if what they have done is hit the accelerator to hard and to quick in the corner with the wheel much to turned.
normally what you do is slow while the limit point is static then match the point with little or no acceleration until the limit point starts to pull away and then you accelerate towards it
This car has lost its back end and been driven into the wall
and unless there is oil etc on the road this is the drivers fault and nothing to do with one brand of car or another

Not being funny here but i think i could drive a Nissan Micra though that bend as fast as a Porsche because the limit point does not change, the angle of attack does not change, and being able to stop within the distance you can see, does not change.
any thing above these limits is dangerous driving. I may see the corner and change my mind as it may be more open that it looks but from what i can see, i stand by my statement

James

 

Problem is nowadays there's a huge number of drivers who have never actually driven a rear wheel drive car. They have no perception of how to do so and come a cropper, especially one with power.

 

Not being funny here but i think i could drive a Nissan Micra though that bend as fast as a Porsche because the limit point does not change, the angle of attack does not change, and being able to stop within the distance you can see, does not change.


not sure i agree james, i think the limit or angle or whatever you call it change with every car, because some turn in faster, some are better ballanced, some have higher levels of grip, and its a no brainer to say a porsche will go through a bend faster than a micra, the point of example is the stig on top gear, who drives the same course in different cars, and obtains vastly different times, he/they....say its not down to speed the cars carry, its down to (mostly) how the car handles round the twisties. some break free far to early, some stick like glue, but the corner is the same,driver is the same, therefore it must be the car....ie a porsche is faster round the corner than a nissan micra.
but as usual, the likley crew will be along to disprove me........lol.

 

If you take all the other factors out of it you are right but you can not take out the other factors unless you are on a track and this car was not, it was on the open road.
So I stand by my statement

James

 

Now I know nothing

I think what we are saying is that the limit of most cars is far greater than the drivers ability.

So car A the micra might loose it at 60mph on this stretch of road

But car B the Ftype might loose it at 90mph on this stretch of road

But what if the drivers limit is only 50mph before he bottles it.

Both cars get round safely within their own limit.

It's very simply driver error, not driving within their own or the cars limit.



"Long live da easy crew".

 

Now I know nothing

I think what we are saying is that the limit of most cars is far greater than the drivers ability.

So car A the micra might loose it at 60mph on this stretch of road

But car B the Ftype might loose it at 90mph on this stretch of road

But what if the drivers limited is only 50mph before he bottles it.

Both cars get round safely within their own limit.

It's very simply driver error, not driving within their own or the cars limit.



"Long live the easy crew".

i cant comment on this because i dont know the facts? the jag might have a component failure? does it say its the drivers fault?

 

Indeed endless possibilities

A failure

Driver error

Illness

A black dog

 

Sort off

Itis very difficult to wright down but very easy to show
I will try

With out giving to much away and tempting some one to try with out training and hurting them selfs, so here goes

The limit point of a bend does not change from car to car in only changes a small amout by you position on the road.

NOW remember we are NOT talking about a track, we ARE talking about the open road. The two are very very differant thing

"You should always drive at a speed which enables you to stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear"

The limit point is defined as "...the farthest point to which you have an uninterrupted view of the road surface."* (Roadcraft P122).* It is the point along the road ahead of you where both sides of the carriageway appear to meet and form in a point, i.e. the limit point.

Many drivers will impulsively use the brake pedal when they want to slow down but really excellent drivers repeatedly analyse the information they gain from the limit point (limit point analysis) and use that information to make a direct cerebral connection to their accelerator pedal; adjusting the vehicle's speed to the speed at which the limit point either comes toward them or moves away from them by use of the accelerator pedal alone.* This use of accelerator pedal to adjust speed without using brakes is known as ‘Accelerator Sense'.

Limit Points always occur in 3 stages and in the following order:

1. It comes towards you.* This occurs either;

a. as you approach a bend in the road or,

b. as you approach a humped back bridge or,

c.* as you reach the apex of a hill.

2. It is matched.* This is the point where the road ahead is now neither coming towards you nor going away from you.* It is the point where the speed of the vehicle is now matched to the speed at which the limit point is moving.* The vehicle is now at the correct speed for the hazard.

3. It goes away from you.* This is the stage where the limit point begins to rush away from you towards the far distance and where you can begin to accelerate out of the bend.* As long as the limit point continues to move away from you, you can accelerate as firmly as you like and you will still not be able to catch up with it.

Limit Point Analysis is the technique of appraising the limit point during your approach to bends in such a way that you can place your vehicle in the most appropriate position before getting the correct speed and selecting the optimum gear (in that order) to deal with the particular bend whilst always making sure ‘you can stop on your own side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear'.* However, being able to stop in this distance within a particular limit point requires a continuous anticipation of ‘…what you might expect to happen next' (what we might call ‘anxious anticipation') and a really tried and tested understanding of the overall stopping distances which can be found in the Highway Code.

By constantly applying ‘Limit Point Analysis', understanding overall stopping distances and continuously using the information gained from the analysis to make a direct cerebral connection between the limit point and your accelerator pedal foot, you will always be able to assess whether you can ‘stop in the distance...you can see to be clear'.* Limit Point Analysis is a technique which must be used at every corner in order to negotiate the hazard in a way that is safe, systematic and which leaves nothing to chance.

Each time you approach a bend you should also be considering three factors:

1.*** From what I see - how best can I apply Limit Point Analysis?* *** =*** O** OBSERVE
2.*** What might I reasonably expect to happen?********************* ** **** =*** U** UNDERSTAND
3.*** How do I plan to deal with it and can I stop in the distance?**** ****=*** R** REACT

Camber and super-elevation play major roles in both instability and stability of a vehicle when cornering and so it's important to identify at an early stage what sort of surface you are dealing with and be prepared to run the System of Car Control again.***

So if a corner tell you it can only be driven, saftey at say 50mph then it almost but not quite, does not depend on what car you are driving.
It is true and I will hold my hand up that my Audi TT will corner better with more grip than a Nissan Micra but as a rule I would corner faster and safer in the Nissan Micr than most Audi TT drivers as it is the corner not the car that determines the safe limits, with in reason. So a poor car in the hands of a good driver is faster and saver than a great car in the hands of a poor driver, and that is most drivers who drive today.
Any one with a right foot can be fast enough to be dangerouse, but we're is the skill and safty in that.

I know a lot of people don't like caravans but to be very honest here in a straight line cars are all over the back of me, in part because of the speed restrictions on towing, we all know what speed a caravan can do legally on a duel carrage way and a motor way etc don't we, if not time to read your highway code, but give me a. Number of bends and they all start dropping back. Unless you have the driver were the headline says "and the car left the road"

I really hope this makes sense

James

 

A sports car with a lower centre of gravity and suspension designed to keep it flat will always tale a corner better. I agree with Dave, it's driver error, driving beyond their capabilities.

 

Yes as long as he has not had a failed system some were it has to be, he was the one driving, one would imagine the tyres were good and the car should handle correctly, it has to be driver error.

Does any one know if the driver was ok by the way.

James

 

cool write up james, i remember a bit of that from "roadcraft" thank you.
are you still saying though that on a road, in the same conditions/same driver, you would be able to go round a bend the same in a micra than in a porsche?
for me it would definatly be the other way round, a point of argument would be, as d3ggy said the sports car has different geometery, different unsprung mass, and weight distribution, so even if the corner points are the same, the sports car will carry more speed/grip/feel round that corner? (tyres on the porsche should make a huge difference also) or am i missing something.

 

No i dont think you are missing the point at all it may be my clumsy way of trying to explain it

May be this will help.

Remember this is a public road and not a track so there are many factors that affect a corner more than just the car

If you take a standard corner and lets say it has an advisory of 30mph

but because you know how to take the corner you can take it at lets say 45MPH

the Nissan Micra would be on it limit but still safe
The Porsche would be no were near it limit and also safe

the difference now is between drivers

give a class one driver in the Micra chasing a normal driver in the Porsche on bends, and both drivers are driving safe the micro i believe will keep up, but at its limit.
on a straight the Porsche would just pull away.

so to try and answer your question

the limit point does not change when it is static
the speed does not change if you have matched the limit point
the massive difference is when the limit point pulls away then the porsche would drive out of the bend much faster

but my first statement was not about the same driver it was if i was driving and a normal driver was driving and we were both driving safe. Then i believe that i could drive the bend faster in a Micr then the normal driver would in his porsch

this is were i say it is much easier to show that to right it down but with students, and if you have done roadcraft you will remember this,
keep up to the fast car in front even as close as contact point, ( the point at which you are going to over take)
on the straights they leave you for dead but on the bends you catch up. remember the instructor saying stay out stay out stay out pull in.

on a side note
the reason i teach road craft, and remember i do this for free and it is 12 week cause, is to keep my own standard up, i have to practise and it never shocks me when i have not been out for 4 weeks or so
and i have lost that sharp edge, it soon come back but knowing ones limitations is as much about advanced driving as anything else.

When i went to the detailing meeting there was a chap with a Porsche who i took out, he is now on the cause i am happy to say.


James

 

A good Saturday afternoon debate

Here is a comparison of how F1 and GT cars take the same bend.

Quite a difference really

Here we are assuming drivers of equal ability but two different handling cars.

 

Dave - That's nowt to do with handling, it's all about aero-induced grip.

 

and a £100 million annual budget...or whatever a top end F1 team spends per year....It does however highlight how bloomin quick F1 cars are when taking a corner.

 

I just liked the video