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Hi, second turbo kicks in about 2800 revs, I don;t really notice it happening. Phil
ninjag beat me to it!
 

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You don't "feel" the 2nd turbo kick in, as such. The engine has bags of torque and the 2nd turbo sort of "takes over" from the 1st turbo around 2,800 revs in a very smooth fashion. There's a large valve on the front of the air induction pipework that progressively opens to the 2nd turbo. The operation is fully described in the workshop manual.
 

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I've found this from my emails to icarsoft, this is what you want to look for. I think it's in the 2013 XF section and still works if you car is older.

It should be roughly this process to find it (same place that you look for error codes):

DIAGNOSTICS
JAGUAR
select firmware version
JAGUAR XF
select year (try 2013 if you can't find it in your year)
select correct engine derivative
MANUAL (not Smart Scan)
select the first one which should be Engine
VIEW DATA
find the one which is similar to my image below and check the box and view live data




Computer Personal computer Azure Gadget Font
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I've found this from my emails to icarsoft, this is what you want to look for. I think it's in the 2013 XF section and still works if you car is older.

It should be roughly this process to find it (same place that you look for error codes):

DIAGNOSTICS
JAGUAR
select firmware version
JAGUAR XF
select year (try 2013 if you can't find it in your year)
select correct engine derivative
MANUAL (not Smart Scan)
select the first one which should be Engine
VIEW DATA
find the one which is similar to my image below and check the box and view live data
Thanks, I've only used Smart Scan so that explains why I couldn't find it. It will be really useful to be able to keep an eye on the levels.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
OK, the issue seems to have been the secondary turbo sticking, hence the bad MAF readings. Everything cleaned, fault codes reset. In fact the DPF was removed to check and cleaned again (at no cost) but apparently wasn't that bad, but obviously the software was "over reading" the soot level which was preventing from regenerating. So from whatever point that occurred, soot was just building up but never being burnt off.

It was running fine before, but there's definitely a rapid increase in power now when the turbo kicks in. I'll know better tomorrow as I only drove the mile or so home from the garage today. This is probably a historical problem and the turbo has been sticking all along since I bought it, but was missed last time the DPF was cleaned as there were no fault codes relating to it and I didn't know having not driven it before the problem started, so I had no point of reference.

Using Esso standard diesel instead of Shell Vpower (due to problems with supply) for the past few fills probably didn't help, but back on the good stuff now and hopefully should be fine going forward. I'll also cut down the shorter journeys as a precaution, but as my wife doesn't drive we only have the one car. Still feels like a great buy for £7k a year ago.

A huge thank you to everybody who offered help and advice by the way, very helpful and very much appreciated and I will follow up on some of the points made such as checking the MAF sensors etc as I forgot to ask if they had been done.
 

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Wish you well. I hope that's sorted it.
It's nice to be kept informed of how a problem is developing.

Paul.
 
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OK here goes. I am a member of another forum but can't get a reply to this so any input would be appreciated. I'm not looking for a guaranteed fix (though that would be nice!)

Long story so I'll try and keep it as short (as I can).

History: I bought a 2009 (MY10) XF 3.0d last June. This was my first diesel car and when I collected it, it had the amber DPF Full warning light lit. The dealer said it had just been stood and needed a run for around half an hour. The car was low mileage (52k) and the previous 2 owners had both only done around 3,000 miles each over a 2 year period (so 6k in 4 years), and overall it looked like a decent buy.

The 35 mile trip home (part 50mph A road, part motorway) didn't clear the DPF warning and it took around 120 motorway miles to eventually clear it.

Now I do quite a few 1 to 4 mile short journeys totalling around 20 miles a week and was advised to take it on a run of 30 miles or so once a month, which I did. I found the DPF warning coming on roughly once every 5-6 weeks which I assumed was normal. It generally took between 30-60 miles on the motorway to clear it.

But I did have another issue: When booting it, it would go into limp mode, seemingly when the turbo kicked in, and the "Service due" light would come on although the car had been serviced previously not that long ago. After a bit of research and getting a diag check, everything pointed to either a turbo problem or DPF filter. I took it in to a DPF specialist (ukdpf.co.uk in Blackpool) and he said the DPF filter was full and needed removing and cleaning. This was done, along with an oil and filter change and following that everything was fine and the faults and limp mode cleared, plus I had more power than I'd had before so it was obvious it had been blocked up. Of course, not having driven before it was well on it's way to being clogged up I had no point of reference so couldn't tell there was a potential problem.


Since then it's been absolutely fine until a couple of weeks ago when the amber DPF Full warning came on again. I thought this was a bit odd because the previous weekend we'd been over to Yorkshire on a back-road run, fast and quiet. In fact for the past few weekends we'd been out and about, including motorway runs of 40-60 miles each way. Whereas in the winter I never really left town, just using it for short journeys - so why would I get the warning now rather than in the winter months?

Anyway, the next weekend we went out on another 45 miles motorway run (Blackpool to Carnforth) which cleared the warning, came back via the quieter A roads. Few stops (traffic lights etc.), no hold ups or slow or standing traffic, I try to plan most journeys along similar routes at quiet times if I can.

Then within a few days and around 20 miles of local driving the warning came back on. A 60 mile round trip on the motorway has failed to clear it this time.

I've done a diag with an iCarsoft LR v2 that I bought, and it throws up just one fault code:
P2459 - DPF Regeneration Frequency error.

The only other things of note are an "oil quality dilution factor" reading of 6.04 "inferred", and when setting up the iCarsoft unit to do a manual forced regen (just to get a reading), it showed a soot level of 3329.08 grams.

Given that it won't start a regen if the figure is over 60 grams, 3329 grams seems absurd. Could it really be that high? since the DPF filter was cleaned about 6 months ago I've only done circa. 2000 miles with an estimated 400-500 of that (probably less rather than more) being local journeys, and a run of at least 30 miles on the motorway at around 60-70 on most weeks.

Now I know that some say it shouldn't be used for short journeys but surely it should be able to cope with that in between runs? What I find odd is that it still seems to drive perfectly well, acceleration is as potent as ever and there's no black smoke at the back .It is going back in to the DPF guy on Thursday but I'm just puzzled by the readings, I don't do excessive short journeys (in my opinion) and having already had the DPF removed and cleaned not that long ago, it doesn't make any sense. Any ideas? And thanks if you made it this far!
The inferred oil dilution is a percentage figure even though you will probably find that the units are not given, so over 6%. This is too high although a warning only appears when it gets to 10% I believe. Ideally 5% should be the very maximum value. I would recommend changing the oil every 5000 miles max with 5w30 C2 or C3 oil. Also 5w40 can be used. Sounds like a new DPF is also required, the soot figure should be probably 20-40 grams nowhere near the figure you have. There’s a possibility that the sensor is faulty and showing an incorrect figure. You could maybe substitute a used sensor if it’s easy to get at, I’m not that familiar with the exact layout of components. The live data may also display differential pressure which will give an indication of the state of the DPF, this should be very low 1-3, I think, not sure of units. If it’s much higher than 5 then the DPF is blocked!
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
The inferred oil dilution is a percentage figure even though you will probably find that the units are not given, so over 6%. This is too high although a warning only appears when it gets to 10% I believe. Ideally 5% should be the very maximum value. I would recommend changing the oil every 5000 miles max with 5w30 C2 or C3 oil. Also 5w40 can be used. Sounds like a new DPF is also required, the soot figure should be probably 20-40 grams nowhere near the figure you have. There’s a possibility that the sensor is faulty and showing an incorrect figure. You could maybe substitute a used sensor if it’s easy to get at, I’m not that familiar with the exact layout of components. The live data may also display differential pressure which will give an indication of the state of the DPF, this should be very low 1-3, I think, not sure of units. If it’s much higher than 5 then the DPF is blocked!
Oil has been checked and is fine, nor was there any dilution occurring as the level was around 75% (after filling) when I last added 0.7L of oil to top it up, and it hasn't changed at all since. The test unit also gave the level in the sump, which was confirmed to be correct. The actual dilution figure at which point the car would throw up a service warning is 7%, and with mine reading 6.04%, that was why I had it checked. However I was advised that it was probably a historical figure left from last time the DPF was cleaned (last October), which was not reset. The mechanic said that if dilution was occurring the level would tend to go up very quickly. Recommended oil for this model is C1.

I asked today if the MAF sensors had been checked and cleaned, they have and it is believed that this whole thing might have been a bad reading from a dirty sensor as much as anything else. DPF wasn't full enough that it should have needed cleaning, and I was also told it's in really good condition. I'm confident now that everything is as it should be car goes like a train and performance was never an issue. I can't remember what the diff pressure was, but it was OK.

I appreciate you're trying to help and most probably haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread, but several of your figures are off:
  • Oil Dilution warning comes in the form of a Service Due warning at 7%. No "maximum value" is recommended by Jaguar and as with many things, these are often based on personal opinion rather than actual data.
  • Recommended oil by Jaguar is C1, not C2 or C3. Everyone of course has their idea of when it should be changed, I do around 5-6000 a year so would likely go with that,
  • Soot figure; if it goes over 60 grams the car won't auto-regen as it's then considered that the DPF is full and should be cleaned. However, my understanding is that many mechanics would recommend trying a forced regen before DPF removal even well after the 60g figure has been reached. No doubt manufacturers will build in a safety level.

I think the actual figure was something like 18% but the readings we were getting were false, bearing in mind this is a £100 tester, not pro kit, but the car wasn't regenerating because the level (according to the tester) was over 60g - even though the warning I got was amber and not red. The actual figure we got was obviously incorrect, no way would it have actually been 3.3kg of soot and the car probably wouldn't have ran at all with that much soot backed up, even if the DPF could physically hold that much, which I doubt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
Wish you well. I hope that's sorted it.
It's nice to be kept informed of how a problem is developing.

Paul.
Thanks, I know there's a bit of waffle but I like to be as thorough as possible in case anybody else has the same problem. If it helps one more person it's worth it, which is why I appreciate the input from everybody. There's always the possibility that someone will come up with something nobody else has thought of.
 

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Oil has been checked and is fine, nor was there any dilution occurring as the level was around 75% (after filling) when I last added 0.7L of oil to top it up, and it hasn't changed at all since. The test unit also gave the level in the sump, which was confirmed to be correct. The actual dilution figure at which point the car would throw up a service warning is 7%, and with mine reading 6.04%, that was why I had it checked. However I was advised that it was probably a historical figure left from last time the DPF was cleaned (last October), which was not reset. The mechanic said that if dilution was occurring the level would tend to go up very quickly. Recommended oil for this model is C1.

I asked today if the MAF sensors had been checked and cleaned, they have and it is believed that this whole thing might have been a bad reading from a dirty sensor as much as anything else. DPF wasn't full enough that it should have needed cleaning, and I was also told it's in really good condition. I'm confident now that everything is as it should be car goes like a train and performance was never an issue. I can't remember what the diff pressure was, but it was OK.

I appreciate you're trying to help and most probably haven't had the opportunity to read the entire thread, but several of your figures are off:
  • Oil Dilution warning comes in the form of a Service Due warning at 7%. No "maximum value" is recommended by Jaguar and as with many things, these are often based on personal opinion rather than actual data.
  • Recommended oil by Jaguar is C1, not C2 or C3. Everyone of course has their idea of when it should be changed, I do around 5-6000 a year so would likely go with that,
  • Soot figure; if it goes over 60 grams the car won't auto-regen as it's then considered that the DPF is full and should be cleaned. However, my understanding is that many mechanics would recommend trying a forced regen before DPF removal even well after the 60g figure has been reached. No doubt manufacturers will build in a safety level.

I think the actual figure was something like 18% but the readings we were getting were false, bearing in mind this is a £100 tester, not pro kit, but the car wasn't regenerating because the level (according to the tester) was over 60g - even though the warning I got was amber and not red. The actual figure we got was obviously incorrect, no way would it have actually been 3.3kg of soot and the car probably wouldn't have ran at all with that much soot backed up, even if the DPF could physically hold that much, which I doubt.
My information is based on my own personal findings from experience of Land Rover, mainly, with the same 3.0d engine and information from other 3.0d users and the newer Ingenium diesel.
I know that Land Rover changed their warning level to 10% dilution with a software update, it was 6% originally I believe, but they found that the warning came on too regularly. It is recommended by oil manufacturers that dilution is kept to well below 5%, but 5% seems a usable figure in practice. The oil recommended for the engine varies between manufacturers, but C1 should be fine if you choose to use that oil….it doesn’t make much difference if the oil is changed at regular intervals. I found that 5w40 works well and there is a useful video on YouTube (LRtime) that gives some good information on oil. I have found that the Ingenium diesel will have oil dilution of 5% after only about 3000 miles.
The soot level should in theory be somewhere between about 20-30g, but again Jaguar may have set their allowable level higher, but any higher than this seems high from what I’ve read. Think regeneration normally starts before 30g is reached.
Ash buildup is the main killer of Dpf’s. Ash is not cleared with a regen., but stays inside the DPf which I presume is what cleaning is supposed to get rid of, but I don’t think that it is always very successful. Ash buildup is caused by poor oil or wrong oil with too few oil changes.
There is a useful video again on back pressure and DPf / cat blockage on the South Main Auto YouTube channel (you’d need to search his videos to find it). He’s a really good mechanic and his videos are very informative. He also teaches at a local college / high school (US) so he knows his stuff.
 

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Mat, C1 oil is low ash generating. C2 and C3 generate higher amounts of ash, blocking the dpf such that a regeneration will not free it up.
Any oil below 1% ash is fine as long as it’s changed at regular intervals. All the C class oils are well under 1% and should be fine for any DPf, again as long as the oil is changed regularly. If the oil is left for 20,000 miles or more then the higher ash levels may cause an issue over an extended period. Regeneration does not remove ash, only soot, so ash will build up if oil changes are neglected, but this should, in theory, take a long time 100,000 miles or more. That’s the theory anyway!
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·
My understanding is that the higher the number, the higher the ash levels, so C1 would be better than C3 for example. I know that Jag recommend C1 for this engine because I made a point of finding out when I first got the car, having originally asked (on another forum) and getting half a dozen different answers. Maybe LR quote differently because the engine would typically be used differently in a Land Rover than in a Jag, or maybe they use a different DPF, but C1 is the oil Jaguar specify.

I know that what happens is the soot is burnt off but not the ash, hence the reason the DPFs need removing and cleaning now and again. The garage I used use the system that flushes and clean the DPF completely, getting rid of all the sot and the ash. This was originally done 2000miles/7 months ago (oil and filter were also changed at that time), hence the anomalous nature of this problem - it was far too early to need another complete clean at this stage, I hadn't done enough short trips to cause that much of an issue that quickly, and it was reasonably obvious the problem lay elsewhere.
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
As a matter of interest, this is what the workshop manual says about oil dilution levels:

"Diesel Particulate Filter Side Effects:
The following section details some side effects caused by the active regeneration process.

Engine Oil Dilution
Engine oil dilution can occur due to small amounts of fuel entering the engine crankcase during the post-injection phases. This has made it necessary to introduce a calculation based on driving style to reduce oil service intervals if necessary. The driver is alerted to the oil service by a message in the instrument cluster. The DPF software monitors the driving style and the frequency of the active regeneration and duration. Using this information a calculation can be made on the engine oil dilution. When the DPF software calculates the engine oil dilution has reached a predetermined threshold (fuel being 7% of engine oil volume) a service message is displayed in the IC. Depending on driving style, some vehicles may require an oil service before the designated interval. If a service message is displayed, the vehicle will be required have a full service and the service interval counter will be reset."

There is a VERY interesting section just before this:
"For drivers who make regular short journeys at low speeds, it may not be possible to efficiently regenerate the DPF. In this case, the DPF software will detect a blockage of the DPF from signals from the differential pressure sensor and will alert the driver as follows: The driver will be alerted to this condition by a message EXHAUST FILTER NEARLY FULL*. See 'HANDBOOK'. As detailed in the Owners Handbook, the driver should drive the vehicle until the engine is at its normal operating temperature and then drive for a further 20 minutes at speeds of not less than 30 mph (48 km/h). Successful regeneration of the DPF is indicated to the driver by the EXHAUST FILTER NEARLY FULL* message no longer being displayed. If the DPF software detects that the DPF is still blocked, the message will continue to be displayed or an additional message 'EXHAUST FILTER FULL VISIT DEALER' will be displayed. The driver should take the vehicle to an authorized dealer to have the DPF force regenerated using an approved diagnostic system"

It's notable that nothing is said that short journeys may cause permanent issues, it only says that it may be necessary for a dealer to do a forced regen. The only instructions are to drive at 30mph or over for 20 minutes. No mention of the common theory that 1/4 of a tank of fuel is needed, or anything else. Seems odd that many people report that this is all they ever experience, i.e. passive regen occurring in the background and the occasional active regen, while others seem to have constant problems at very short intervals.

* - We know this message was replaced by "DPF FULL SEE HANDBOOK"
 

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Something rings a bell about hamedhbb using oil that wasn't C1 (I think as break in oil) and didn't it result in his MAP sensor clogging and subsequently an inlet manifold failing in a very short time? I forget exactly but I'm positive something bad happened very quickly after using non C1 oil.
 

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
Something rings a bell about hamedhbb using oil that wasn't C1 (I think as break in oil) and didn't it result in his MAP sensor clogging and subsequently an inlet manifold failing in a very short time? I forget exactly but I'm positive something bad happened very quickly after using non C1 oil.
Seems a big failure soon after using the correct oil, assuming the one he did use was C rated. Could be a coincidence, but strange things have happened. Jaguar must specify C1 for a reason.
 

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Discussion Starter · #60 ·
Sorry, a bit of a long post but I wanted to fully explain the issue without folks having to look back through the whole thread.

Unfortunately the DPF saga continues. But I think I know what's been happening and why, although I'm not necessarily currently having an issue with the DPF itself per se.

Last week I had the car MOT'd and apart from a couple of advisories (play in front lower suspension arms, worn bushes, and a slight bulge in the front O/S tyre - annoying as they've only done 2000 miles - but I've had the work done); a small exhaust leak at a front OS joint was noted.

The garage said it wasn't particularly bad and wouldn't worry about it at the moment, but my opinion on this sort of thing is the same as with the suspension/tyre, that I might as well get it done because it's only going to get worse, and worse usually equals more expensive. Besides I had noticed a smell in the cabin and louder exhaust note, but I thought it might be related to the DPF regen.

Anyway, just to recap, I've been having DPF problems in which the DPF had to be removed and cleaned after it was previously done just 8 months and 2000 miles ago, and after a run of mixed driving but absolutely not enough slow/town driving to need it doing again. The last time it went in the garage initially said it was probably related to the second turbo, which was known to stick with owners who just used the car for pottering around town, which isn't how I use it all the time but was probably how the previous owner used it. It's still only done 56k after 13 years.

In the end they just said the DPF needed cleaning again and it was probably because I hadn't driven it fast or hard enough, which I was never happy with because, well, let's just say that's half the reason I bought it!

So that's the situation, and it's run fine since the last clean a few weeks ago, in fact it's been even better, smoother and with better acceleration since I started adding Millers diesel Eco Boost to make sure the system was as clean as I could get it. But I was always convinced that the previous issue was caused by the DPF not regenerating when it should.


Moving on to today, now that I have this exhaust leak at the FRONT of the system I believe that what is happening is that is affecting the pressure readings, and it's those readings that tell the system when to regenerate the DPF.

(Workshop manual PDF p.1753:
"By measuring the pressure difference between the DPF inlet and outlet and the DPF temperature, the DPF software can determine if the DPF is becoming blocked and requires regeneration." )


So my best guess is that because the pressure readings are not what they should be the DPF isn't regenerating when it should be. I've been in touch with the garage again and he seems reluctant to want to do any welding but he's asked me to take it in tomorrow so they can have a look at what needs welding. I'm convinced now that my instincts telling me it wasn't regenerating were right all along, and this leak is the cause of it.

There was another thing. I was in Manchester last week and as I set off back I got a "Service due in (about) 1000 miles" warning on the dash. When I got home the "Service due" light came on. That was only a 60 mile trip, but for the most of the last 30 miles/2 hours I was stuck in stationary/crawling traffic.

I did a scan with the iCarsoft kit and got the P244B fault code, "DPF Differential Pressure Too High Bank 1", which effectively confirms the exhaust leak, but I also noted the fuel dilution figure was at 7.53 (%) - any figure over 7% triggers the "Service Due" warning, which also points to the DPF possibly trying to regen but not doing so, in my mind anyway. A reading of the oil level on the dash shows it to be full, whereas a couple of weeks ago it was only 75-80% full so I'm almost certainly getting oil dilution issues.

No other faults showing, but the iCARsoft kit shows a soot mass of 2048 grams. I know that's a mad figure, but it showed over 2000 when I last had it cleaned so it's probably not changed.

Some readings I took are as follows: Figures in brackets were taken around 400 miles ago:
Oil Dilution Factor: 7.53% (6.09%)
Oil Level Measured: 630mm (620mm)
Oil Volume Calculated: 6.4L (6.9L) - Notably this has gone DOWN, not up so I don't know what to make of that, although calculations by the system probably assume everything is working as it should be.

Hopefully once the exhaust leak is sorted it will put an end to all this, I certainly hope so as we're on holiday in the Lake District in a few weeks' time. It's all been a bit of a pain in the backside as these things can be, but we'll get to to bottom of it eventually.
 
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